Parenting expert Dr. Jim Burns, along with husband-and-wife ministry team Dave and Ann Wilson teach us about caring for our loved ones through all seasons of life. As a father to three grown daughters, Jim has been through every stage of parenting. But when his daughters reached their adult years, Jim and his wife Cathy realized their parenting style needed to evolve with their changing relationship with their children. Jim took what he learned through the experience and shared it through his latest book, Doing Life with Your Adult Children. In 1990, Dave Wilson was traveling with the Detroit Lions as their chaplain. And when he was home, he and his wife Ann were building their young family and a new church, Though Dave and Ann seemed to be living the life of their dreams, on their 10th anniversary, Ann made a revelation that put their marriage into a spin and would forever change their relationship.
Dr. Jim Burns: The Bible says that the man or woman of integrity walks securely.
If you’re authentic, then your kids are going to be more secure. Will they be perfect? No. And we keep thinking there’s somebody out there that might have the perfect family, and I haven’t found that yet.
Navigating Relationships Through Every Storm: Dr. Jim Burns and Dave & Ann Wilson – Episode #139
Narrator: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. Today’s guests teach us about caring for our loved ones through all seasons of life: parenting expert Dr. Jim Burns, along with husband-and-wife ministry team Dave and Ann Wilson.
Up first, Jim Burns is the president of HomeWord, an organization that aims to help families succeed. As a father to three grown daughters, Jim has been through every stage of parenting. But when his daughters reached their adult years, Jim and his wife Cathy realized their parenting style needed to evolve with their changing relationship with their children. Jim took what he learned through experience and shares it through his latest book, Doing Life with Your Adult Children.
Dr. Jim Burns: My name is Jim Burns. I’ve been married to Cathy for 44 years. We have three daughters, so we’ve had no hormones or drama in our life. They’re all adults now.
I am the president of HomeWord. And HomeWord has four values: strong marriages, confident parents, empowered kids, and healthy leaders. That’s sort of what we write about and what we talk about. We’re the largest provider of parenting seminars in the United States, and so we keep busy doing that fun stuff.
Relearning How to Parent
Parents who have adult children are having to kind of relearn how you parent, and that their children who are adults and themselves are going through what I call a “parallel track,” which simply means it’s the first time for the adult child [and their parents] to figure out how to relate.
We had to re-learn that we had a new job description and that our role as a parent had to change. I oftentimes say, “You’re fired.” You’re fired as a day-to-day parent, and now your role moves from adult-child to adult-to-adult. And it doesn’t happen in one day. I still have opinions about my my daughters. I have a 30, 31, and 34-year-old, and I still have opinions about him, but sometimes I just have to hold my mouth shut.
The book is called Doing Life With Your Adult Children. We say “keep your mouth shut, keep the welcome mat out.” And it’s hard to keep your mouth shut, especially if they’re making decisions that you’re not totally thrilled about.
“Keep your mouth shut, keep the welcome mat out.” – Dr. Jim Burns, on caring for adult children
One of the principles I talk about “unsolicited advice is usually taken as criticism.” My daughter Christy and her husband Steve, who are incredibly capable people, they have these two beautiful grandkids of ours, I said, “Hey, Christy, can I give you some advice on this?” They we’re moving from Dana Point, California, where I live and where they lived, to Texas. It was really stressful, and she and Steve were having a debate on how they were going to do the move, and what was cheapest.
I said “Hey, can I give you my opinion?”
My daughter looks up at me and she goes, “Not now, Dad.”
And I’m going, Wait a minute. People pay me to give them advice. And you, my daughter, are not asking for it?
Later on, she kind of circled back around said, “Hey, what were what were you going to suggest? We’re still at a standstill,” and it worked out great. But at that moment, I realized, I just need to bite my tongue. And that was so hard to do as a parent.
The bottom line in parenting—they could be a five-year-old or an adult—is not that you raise obedient children, but that you raise responsible adults. I think sometimes we as parents haven’t negotiated boundaries and expressed our expectations. And so in many ways, one of the key questions is: are we enabling our adult child to stay under our wing? Or are we helping them launch?
“The bottom line in parenting—they could be a five-year-old or an adult—is not that you raise obedient children, but that you raise responsible adults.” – Dr. Jim Burns
Today we have to become students of the culture, and millennials are meandering toward responsibility. They’re meandering toward marriage. Once they get married, they’re really serious about their marriages. Now at HomeWord, because we’re a family ministry, the millennials are like, “Wow, I want to raise my kid to do this,” and I say that’s great. [They say,] “I want a marriage that strong,” but they have meandered toward that.
And the millennials have a different view than a lot of of their parents. They’re shaped by technology. They view tolerance as one of the major traits of a loving person.
So it is really interesting, in terms of the parents, [to engage] with someone who actually has been raised in a very different culture.
The Real Definition of Tough Love
When kids stray, whether it be lifestyle choice or whether it be faith issues, I think what we do is we still stand by them, and we have to understand where they’re coming from.
“When kids stray, whether it be lifestyle choice or whether it be faith issues, I think what we do is we still stand by them, and we have to understand where they’re coming from.” – Dr. Jim Burns
I actually believe that our model is Jesus. I think Jesus had some disagreements with people. No doubt He said it. He was verbal about it, but then He still showed love to people that within His generation—you know, tax collectors—shouldn’t have been at the party. The prostitutes shouldn’t have been wiping her tears on His feet because that was not happening with the rabbis. But what Jesus did was He didn’t tend to agree with how they lived their life, but He did show love and acceptance. And guess what happened? That’s what turned them around.
“What Jesus did was He didn’t tend to agree with how they lived their life, but He did show love and acceptance.” – Dr. Jim Burns
I think we misunderstand tough love. Tough love does not mean that you quit talking to your kids, that you ignore your kids or shun them because they’ve made poor choices. Tough love says that you surround them with love, and while you surround them with love, you don’t bail them out. And you don’t dump your anger and frustration on them.
“Tough love says that you surround them with love, and while you surround them with love, you don’t bail them out. And you don’t dump your anger and frustration on them.” – Dr. Jim Burns
There is a tough love statement that says, “You earned it.” So it means the hardest thing for a parent is to let them [deal with] if they made some poor choices. They’ve kind of earned the consequences of it.
And it’s so hard. Oh my gosh, it’s so hard to let your kids crash or let your kids make these poor choices. But I’ve never seeing nagging work.
Tough love isn’t shunning and neglecting them. [Kids don’t say,] “Oh, now that my parents are neglecting me when I am in trouble, I’m going to come right back to them and get beat up again.” That isn’t going to work.
I think the biggest question they’re asking [when they’re rebelling] is, “Do you still love me?” And so somehow, you’ve got to be able to express love even though you don’t express agreement with them in that.
One of our daughters has not been as involved in the faith as we would like her to be. And yet she respects us greatly and she goes to church with us when she comes to town and all that kind of stuff. But what we have found is periodically, we can send her a cool thing. In fact, I bought her Jesus Calling a couple of years ago and just said, “This is something that I read every day. I hope this might be meaningful.”
Every once in a while—she’s not an every-dayer like I am—but every once in a while, she’ll say “Hey, did you read August 10th because that was really meaningful day.” I’m always surprised because I don’t see her flexing that muscle. But she’ll talk about it and I think, “Well, how amazing. ” She’s not doing it to try to impress me. She’s doing it because she really read something that was meaningful.
I tell people that I have coffee with a woman named Sarah Young every morning, and they kind of look at me like, “What are you, some kind of weirdo?” But I truly do. And in fact, if there are mornings where I miss it, I pick it back up. For me, the themes of—and everybody has a different theme—but the themes of thankfulness, gratitude, and trust are the themes that jump out at me.
It’s very important to me—the words are important. And then I read it on my iPad because I’m too lazy to look up the scripture, and on the ebook version, it has the scripture with it. And I read that scripture, and then I journal and I write many of those scriptures down, and I feel like Jesus is speaking to me. I actually, honestly, forget that it was written by this incredible woman who I’ve never met or know anything about.
I’m always amazed how many Christian leaders lean on [Jesus Calling] as well. I used to have a radio broadcast, and I can remember interviewing Kay Warren. We got to talking about Jesus Calling, and she’s going, “Oh my gosh, it’s just saved me from so many things that I had in my head.” It’s remarkable
Grandparents Can Build Their Legacy
The beauty of being a grandparent is you really can, you know, continue to work on your legacy.
My background is youth ministry, and I would say to kids, “How did you grow in your faith?”
And so many times, [their response was,] “It was my grandma, it was my grandpa.”
A lot of people don’t have that opportunity, so I think they find them in the church. I actually was not too long ago in a place called Sarasota, Florida. Most of these grandparents who were there didn’t have their kids nearby. And I said, “The church is the perfect place for you to grandparent some people, because there are some people in your church whose parents are somewhere else. Why couldn’t you invest some of your valuable time into the lives of not only the grandkids, but also the lives of of these young men and women who are trying to juggle. They’re so busy and they’re trying to make it work and they’re working these extra jobs and they live in a beautiful spot, but they really need somebody to just come and say, ‘Hey, can we watch your kids?’”
Without the permission of anybody of the church, I said, “Can we get a yellow pad? And if you’re willing to babysit for some of the younger generation, would you put your name down?” And the family ministry person goes, “This is amazing.” They had like 10 couples who said they’d be willing to [help].
So that’s what you do. You find people who will love on your kids, if you don’t have your kids around you. And you know what? If I can serve in that way in a small way, then how much better it is for them to know that there are grandparents are pulling for them like crazy?
I didn’t see the grandparent thing coming as strong as it did for me. It hit me strong. It hit me the day that my daughter as a pregnant woman had what she called “the name reveal.” We were sitting at a restaurant right before church. She hands this children’s book to me and she says “Dad, open it.” Oh my gosh, I’m already now kind of tearing up. And it says, “For James.” So of course, that’s my name
But [becoming a grandparent] just, it changed me. Even then, it changed me.
Narrator: Jim’s new book Doing Life with Your Adult Children is available from your favorite book retailer today.
Narrator: Stay tuned for our next interview with authors and church planters Dave and Ann Wilson after a brief message about a free offer from Jesus Calling!
Jesus Always March Prayer Calendar
Are you looking for a way to keep track of your daily prayers along with Jesus Calling? The Jesus Calling family prayer calendar goes right along with your daily readings from Jesus Calling. Each day begins with a guided reflection, followed by a space for you to fill in your prayers of thanksgiving and special requests. You can get your free Jesus Calling Family Prayer calendar by visiting, JesusCalling.com/offers. Visit JesusCalling.com/offers to download your free Family Prayer calendar today.
Narrator: Today we’re also delighted to host Dave and Ann Wilson on the show. Dave has been the chaplain for the NFL’s Detroit Lions since 1985, and along with his wife Ann, the two planted a church in the Detroit area called Kensington Church. As they were building their young family and new church, Dave and Ann seemed to be living the life of their dreams—until their 10th anniversary. Ann made a revelation that put their marriage into a spin and would forever change their relationship.
Dave: Hi, this is Dave Wilson. I help lead a church up in the Detroit, Michigan, area called Kensington Church.
Ann: I’m Ann Wilson. I’m a wife, I’m a mom. We’ve got three sons who are all married, and we’ve got . . . it will be four grandkids in a couple days.
Dave: Yep. We’re waiting with bated breath.
Ann: We also do a lot of speaking about marriage, because we haven’t had a perfect marriage and that gives us something to speak about.
Dave: And now we’re authors, honey, we’re authors.
Ann: Oh, there you go.
Growing Closer to Jesus and Each Other
Dave: Ann and I grew up in the same hometown of Findlay, Ohio. And actually, Ann’s father was my baseball coach in high school. Her brother was my offensive center. I was the quarterback, he was the center.
Ann: Dave was—and is—three years older than I am. Growing up, when you are in high school and junior high, that’s a big difference. And honestly, I thought Dave Wilson was the most conceited, arrogant guy I had ever met.
I didn’t grow up in a Christian home. My sister was older than I was, and she came home after she’d been married. I was 16 and she said, “Ann, I found out how we can have eternal life.”
And I gave my life to Jesus and didn’t know anybody else that were followers of Christ. I started going to church on my own and reading the Bible on my own.
And then when I was a senior in high school, Dave Wilson was home from college and he was a big stud around our hometown because he was a college quarterback and he was home. And all these girls came up and said, “Oh my gosh, Dave Wilson’s in the gym playing basketball! Hey, did you know that [he’s] a Christian now?”
And I was like, “What!?”
Dave: The long story short is, I had achieved everything I had dreamed of on a football field and had a scholarship, and I was empty. I couldn’t believe I just led the nation of passing percentage at my college, and I was empty and I couldn’t understand it.
I went back to sort of my roots of growing up in a church, and I started wondering if Jesus really was the missing piece of my life. I’m sort of a skeptic, so I had to go on a journey to find out if this story in the Bible was even reliable and true. And I decided if you do your homework, you’re overwhelmed by the evidence that says this really did happen and Jesus died for me, forgave me, rose from the dead to give me a new life and power. And so I gave my life to Jesus.
“You’re overwhelmed by the evidence that says this really did happen and Jesus died for me, forgave me, rose from the dead to give me a new life and power.” – Dave Wilson
Ann: I went up to [Dave] in the gym and I said, “So is it true? You? You actually gave your life to Jesus?” So that was kind of the beginning. We started off as friends, and then that led to more romance, and we were married about a year later.
Dave: We’ve been married 38 years now.
“I have totally lost all my feelings for you.”
Dave: I always thought that I would want to play in the NFL or my dad was an airline pilot. I just thought it was about money and being successful. The more we grew in Christ, the more we realized, “Wow, we want to use our lives to extend the kingdom of God in any way we can.”
I actually got an offer to play for the Cincinnati Bengals as a free agent. I looked at that and we were like, “I don’t want to do that. I want to use what God’s done in our lives to reach other people.”
“I want to use what God’s done in our lives to reach other people.” – Dave Wilson
God took us on a journey where we went to seminary, and I got a Masters of Divinity. And while I was in school, I sort of got a new vision for how God could use the church and gave us a dream to help start a church that would reach men far from God, unchurched men. And so we moved to Detroit to be the Detroit Lions’ chaplain, that’s when I started back in 1985. But we also knew that God would hopefully use us, and we could start a church for unchurched men. And that’s why we started Kensington in 1990.
Within a year, we were at 1000, 1500 people attending on the weekend. And that grew to 5000 and 10,000. God really, really blessed it sort of quickly and sort of overwhelmed us.
I got lost in working and working and working to help build this church. And at the same time, I was still doing the Detroit Lions ministry, which meant I’m on the road with the team, we’re leading Bible studies during the week. There’s a lot of hours that I was away from home, and had no idea how my life was affecting Ann and our boys and being a family on mission.
Ann: When we started Kensington, we already had two kids that were three and one, and I was pregnant with our third. It was all-consuming. And honestly, Dave was fulfilling this dream and this call—I felt like we were both called, but as a mom, I kind of felt left in the dust. I was frustrated, I think, in terms of the time and energy Dave was bringing into our marriage. So it really created a rift in our relationship.
“Dave was fulfilling this dream and this call—I felt like we were both called, but as a mom, I kind of felt left in the dust.” – Ann Wilson
Dave: The interesting thing is, I would have told you at that time our marriage is great. I would have told you on a scale of 1 to 10, we’re a 10. If not a 10, we’re a 9.8, and my wife probably thinks the exact same thing. I was clueless.
Ann: Which, by the way, I would have said we were probably closer to a 0.5. And the fact that Dave thought [we were a 10] made me even more angry, because he had no idea how bad we were doing.
Dave: So we end up on a date that I planned for our 10-year anniversary, which was just a few months before we were going to open our weekend doors for the church.
We had a great night. I got us dinner at a really nice restaurant. I had ten roses brought to the table, one by one. I’d look at the waiter, and he’d bring one rose, and we talk about year one. And then he brought a second rose, we talked but year two, all the way up to ten roses and ten years.
Ann: And you were killing it that night. It was pretty amazing. He had gone all out in making this night awesome.
Dave: So we’re driving home, and I had another surprise, which was the pull into the parking lot of the middle school we had just signed a contract to rent to start our church. I’d seen this middle school was like, I want to show her this is where we’re going to start Kensington. And then I thought it’d be fun to just park, if you know what I mean by “parking.”
We’re in the front seat of a Honda Accord, so I leaned over to kiss Ann, and she turns away from me. I initially thought, She didn’t realize I was trying to kiss her, so I paused for a second and then I tried to kiss her again, and she definitely turned her head. So I asked that question no guy ever wants to ask, but I asked it. I said, “Is something wrong?”
Ann: You know, Dave had just put on this amazing evening. I didn’t want to go there and say there was something wrong, and so I just lied. I said, No, it’s okay.” I thought, I’ll just get to it later.
Then he tried to kiss me again, and I was just like, Ugh, I don’t even want to go there.
Dave asked, “So what’s really going on?”
I was quiet for a few minutes, and then I just said, “I have totally lost all my feelings for you. I have nothing. Nothing.”
And we’d been fighting. I would say things to Dave like, “You’re leaving again? I’m going to put the boys to bed by myself again? Okay, see ya, great.” And that’s our communication. I was angry, he’d get angry. But this time I told him, “I’ve lost everything.” I didn’t even know where we could go from that point, because I started out really angry, and then my anger turned to bitterness, and then my bitterness turned to resentment. And pretty soon, I didn’t even care that he was gone.
I had no idea what Dave would say about that. I assumed he’d get angry and say that he was home.
Dave: Yeah, in fact, when she was sharing what she was feeling, my first instinct was the reach in the backseat—I actually did reach into the back seat—to grab my my weekly planner and prove to her that I was home more than she was saying. And that’s what I often did when we argued: I just proved her wrong.
I literally turned—she did know I was doing this—but I turned to grab my day planner. And as I turned, I had this unique experience, it’s only happened a few times in my life, but I heard the voice of God. And it wasn’t audible voice, it was just the Holy Spirit of God who lives in me and lives in anybody that’s a follower of Christ. He said, “Shut up. Yes, shut up. Don’t touch that planner. Just listen.” And so I did.
I heard Ann talking about me being gone and starting this church and how it made her feel. And then I heard God say one more word, just one word, and it was just simply this: “Repent. Repent.” He said it like three times. “Repent.”
I knew when God said “repent,” He was saying this: “You are lukewarm. You haven’t been intimate with Me in months, if almost a year. You been running to this thing and running to that thing. The last time you opened the Bible was not to meet with Me and let Me love you. You open the Bible for one reason only, and that’s to get a sermon to give to people so that they can say you’re amazing. If you don’t repent and put Me first, this marriage thing is never going to work.” In other words the horizontal is not going to work unless the vertical is in place.
So when He finished, I just looked at her and said, “We need to talk, and I want to hear more of what you feel. But before we do that, I’ve got to do something. You don’t need to do this, but I need to do this.” And I needed to get on my knees in the front seat of a Honda Accord and repented. And to this day I don’t know how I got on my knees in the driver’s seat. I turned around and the steering wheel was in my back, and I just simply prayed out loud.
Ann: It was amazing. I didn’t expect him to do that. And I love Proverbs because it says, “A gentle answer turns away wrath.” Dave answered gently. I was so convicted, and it was almost as if God was saying to me, “Ann, you’ve been trying to find your life, your happiness through your husband.” It was almost like he had become, and my marriage had become an idol, thinking if Dave would get it together and he would love me and be home more and be the dad I wanted him to be, then I would be happy. “But I am the one that fills you up and gives you purpose meaning.”
And so as Dave was still on his knees, I did the exact same thing. I got on my knees in the car, and I put my forearms and my head in that seat, and I just said, “God, I have made my marriage and my husband an idol, and I put you back on the throne of my life. And I again give you total control of it and I confess that I haven’t put you first. And I put You first now and make our marriage and our family what you want it to be.”
“God, I have made my marriage and my husband an idol, and I put you back on the throne of my life. . . . I confess that I haven’t put you first. And I put you first now and make our marriage and our family what you want it to be.” Ann Wilson
It was a defining moment for our marriage and our lives.
Making Marriage Vertical Will Help You Come Alive Again
Dave: That night when she said that, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, she’s the best thing ever happened in my life. If I lose her and I lose this, I lose everything. And it’s more important than anything else I’m doing.”
Ann: We kind of put some things in place that could help us restore our marriage, my feelings, our relationship. So we’ve always dated, but as we went out on our dates this time, Dave did something that I felt like was really brave. He said Hey, “Okay, now tell me on a scale of 1 to 10, how are we this week?”
“We kind of put some things in place that could help us restore our marriage, my feelings, our relationship.” – Ann Wilson
Isn’t that good? It’s so brave. Because he knew if I was at a 0.5, I wasn’t going to be instantly at 10. But he would say things like, “What’s this going to look like to get us back?” And I thought it was so humble, just that alone. I felt like that is so helpful in any marriage for someone to be humble enough to say, “What can I do?”
We started changing our schedule. Dave started saying no to things. We started being more intentional about how we were spending our time.
I felt like my prayer was, “Jesus, show me who Dave is in your eyes, and show me how to love him and respect him the way you want me to do.” And that wasn’t easy because I was angry at first, but I felt like it was almost like instead of putting a magnifying glass on the weaknesses and the things that he wasn’t doing, I felt like God gave me new eyes to see him and the things that he was doing and to complement those things.
I think if, as we were going through this, if I would have stopped to say, “Jesus, what are you saying to me about my marriage?” I think if I would have stopped just to listen, He’s always wanting to answer. And I think that’s what Jesus Calling has done for all of us. As we turn a page and we’re going through something that day, it just reminds us that Jesus wants to talk to us about our situation because He intimately loves us so much. I think that’s why Jesus Calling has been so popular and people are seeking it and it’s been going on for years because we all long to hear His voice, and He wants to talk to us because He lives in us and He loves us.
This is from Jesus Always, January 29:
You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart. I don’t expect perfection in this pursuit; it’s not about that at all. It is the effort itself that pleases Me—when you keep on seeking Me even though it’s so difficult. Actually, the intensity of this challenging search blesses you. As you strive to find Me in your moments, your focus is on Me. While you trudge toward Me through countless distractions, your awareness of Me increases. Even if you don’t feel close to Me, you find yourself communicating with Me. So there is a sense in which your efforts to find Me are self-fulfilling: I am richly present in your striving. As a result, you feel more alive—more awake and real—when you are actively pursuing Me.
Your willingness to pour yourself into this glorious quest delights My heart. This joyful journey is all about perseverance. As long as you continue seeking Me, you are on the right path. Moreover, your success is certain: I will be found by you!
God always pursuing us. He always wants relationship with us. As our relationship with Him becomes more beautiful and intimate, that affects every single area of our lives.
I think what I realized was the more I started concentrating on Dave, I was consumed with him. And the more I would concentrate on God, I was consumed with Him. Does that make sense? It’s almost like I re-established my everyday relationship of talking to Him continually, of surrendering, confessing as it came instead of letting things build up.
I feel like in time, my feelings for [Dave] came all the way back to a 10, and I feel like that was only because of God’s mercy and grace, but also putting it into practice my walk with God [and] really fighting for it and making it a priority.
“In time, my feelings for [Dave] came all the way back to a 10, and I feel like that was only because of God’s mercy and grace, but also putting it into practice my walk with God [and] really fighting for it and making it a priority.” – Ann Wilson
Dave: Almost every marriage I know, at some point, we’re disappointed in our spouse. They don’t give us or do for us what we thought they would do. We’re not as happy or we’re disappointed. And so we think we married the wrong person. If we get the right person, then we’ll find that romance and that happiness and joy we thought we’d get.
And what we discovered is you didn’t marry the wrong person, you’re looking in the wrong place. Only God can give you what you’re really looking for. When you find that through your relationship with Jesus, He fills you up to a place where you come back to your marriage, not to get but to give because you got something to give. It’s an overflow of what God has given you.
“You didn’t marry the wrong person, you’re looking in the wrong place. Only God can give you what you’re really looking for.” – Dave Wilson
Man, that’s what vertical marriage is all about. If you pursue Jesus first vertically, He gives you life that you bring into your marriage. And it just changes every aspect of not just marriage, but your whole life, but it definitely applies to your relationship. Pursue Him first, pursue your spouse second, and you will come alive again.
Narrator: To learn more about Dave and Ann’s book Vertical Marriage, please visit daveandannwilson.com.
Narrator: Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we speak with Jeremy Cowart, an award-winning photographer and entrepreneur whose life mission is to explore the intersection of creativity and empathy. He speaks about our “selfie” culture when it comes to photos on social media, and how he’d like to see more good being pictured online.
Jeremy Cowart: Seems like every Instagram account these days is pictures of people, like selfies or portraits of themselves or acting like they’re . . . you know, everybody [is] basically trying to become a lifestyle personality
I think there’s a danger in that and becoming so obsessed with ourselves and the way we look in the story we’re telling that it’s just, none of that is real life. So I just crave to see more people trying to help with their tools, use their accounts to do good things, to showcase others, to tell others’ stories. We can’t get enough of that.
